Matthew Hall
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Is Sydney Ripe For a Second A-League Team?
How deep is your love?
That was a question Bee Gee Barry Gibb asked back in 1977, a song on the soundtrack to that year's big movie, Saturday Night Fever.
The iconic disco film starred John Travolta, an occasional Socceroo fan, or at least a guy who gets access to the dressing room whenever Australia qualifies for a World Cup.
(Bear with me, here. I promise I'm going somewhere with this).
For those that missed it, 1977 was the year of punk rock and Fleetwood Mac, Jimmy Carter was US President, Malcolm Fraser was Prime Minister, John Howard was Treasurer (aged 38), and the Centenary cricket Test between Australia and England filled the Melbourne Cricket Ground.
Elvis died, the first Commodore computer was sold, someone thought something called an 'internet' might actually work, Shakira and Kanye West were born and so too was Thierry Henry.
It was also the first year of the National Soccer League, Australia's first-ever national football competition.
(Yes, that includes Australian rules, rugby league, and rugby union).
The competition was a somewhat exotic-sounding mish-mash of teams from Australia's south and east.
Let's roll them out...
Canberra City (coached by Johnny Warren).
West Adelaide (with John Kosmina up front).
St George.
Footscray JUST (the 'Just' had something to do with Serbia, I forget what).
Sydney Olympic.
South Melbourne.
Adelaide City.
Brisbane Lions.
Brisbane City.
Marconi-Fairfield.
Western Suburbs (with former Socceroo captain Peter Wilson in defence).
Fitzroy United.
Eastern Suburbs Hakoah.
Mooroolbark
Basic maths shows us the fledgling league had two teams from Brisbane, two from Adelaide, one from Canberra, four from Melbourne and FIVE from Sydney.
Western Australia, Tasmania, and the Far North did not exist.
It was an inspired idea, a competition that reflected its time and, in retrospect, totally unworkable.
Official records show 1000 people showed up to the Sydney Sports Ground to see Western Suburbs smash Mooroolbark 5-0.
The biggest crowd on opening weekend was the neatly rounded 7460 that turned up at Olympic Park in Melbourne as Frank Lowy's beloved Hakoah beat Fitzroy 3-1.
Despite cosmetic changes the make-up of the NSL had not changed too much for its final season back in 2004.
Sydney still had five teams in the league. Stand up Marconi, Sydney United, Parramatta Power, Northern Spirit, and Sydney Olympic.
During that final sleepy season, crowds struggled to top 3000.
But, again, in the inspired modern era of the one-team, one-city, very popular A-League the one feature of the old competition that stands out is that Sydney had five teams.
Three of them west of Parramatta.
Type that again: five teams.
None of which, it should be remembered, were able to reach out beyond their grass roots community with the very brief exception of Northern Spirit, a gorgeous model that quickly revealed itself as vacuously based on nothing at all of substance.
She was hot. Then she spoke. And was gone.
More recently, A-League expansion plans have seen Townsville and the Gold Coast mooted as the likely location for new teams, although the intriguing withdrawal last week of the North Queensland club's major financial backer seems to have pressed the pause button on that idea.
The financial details of the Townsville bid were leaked last week and circulated among local football insiders over the past few days.
The business model explained that, with expenditure projected at over $7 million per season, Townsville planned to lose $2 million in its first year and only hit a small profit by Year Five of its existence.
Player salaries sucked up close to half its operating budget but, importantly, the model also did not figure on any income from potentially lucrative player transfers.
Note to A-League clubs: develop young players and sell them for profit.
In somewhat disheartening news for journalists, only $6000 for the entire season was allocated for media catering and not a single dollar would be spent on media functions.
Note to Townsville: Stop this madness NOW.
Establishing regional franchises is one area where the A-League has to be very smart, especially in a country where vast geography and limited local economics play havoc with expansion plans.
Central Coast has been a slow success, even if it can be argued that the team will one day be representing the northern reaches of Sydney (that is probably the point).
At the A-League's inception, the one team-one city concept was genius and common sense but as the competition develops organically can Sydney sustain a second team?
That is one question that is bouncing around the walls of the A-League - and Frank Lowy's - headquarters.
The supposed glitz and glamour of Sydney FC's first season has well and truly worn off but does the club, by virtue of its location, maintain an eastern suburbs aura and all the baggage, deserved or not, that carries?
Football support is based on tribalism and one question that has yet to be asked as the A-League grows is whether single city teams reach out and connect with everyone.
Do people west of Parramatta feel an emotional connection with the boys in blue?
Would sponsors back a second team?
Would Sydney lose fans or is the West, South, or even North ripe for new ones?
Can Sydney ever be a global football city like Madrid, London, Milan, Rome, or Rio de Janeiro?
Today, Barry Gibb and the Bee Gees might seem like dinosaurs from another universe but what happened back then does have relevance to today.
The days of five Sydney teams in a national competition are implausible today but would cross-town rivalry show that football in Australia has truly come of age?
COMMENTS
Both Sydney AND Melbourne needs a 2nd team and when it happens, football will go much closer in fully realising its potential in Australia. SFC will only ever be significantly supported by half the city and football does not reach out to those in Penrith, Liverpool and Parramatta, then AFL will happly step into the void.
- by Paul on March 09, 2008 at 06:06 AM
SFC does not yet pull the consistent large crowds to warrant a second team for the city. Large crowds show up for the big matches, and thats about it. The support is there for the one club, however the culture of the city is to generally stay at home and watch on Fox if living further west than Parramatta. Sure with a new team the initial crowds will be satisfying, however over time like with SFC, they will average out to be smaller than hoped and the whole decision will come into question again. We honestly do not have the fan base. The A-League is actually working. Lets allow it to produce some well developed fruits for its labour before trying to make it bigger when it can't really handle it. Look what happened to the NRL when it got too big and spread it's wings. It had it's soul cut out of it due to take overs and greed all in the name of expansion. It's recovering, but it needed to return to its grass roots to do so.
The perfect example of one team working is NSW Waratahs. Not always getting the results, but always packing the stadium.
One day we will have two teams (along with Melbourne) but lets get it completely right with what we have until the cities are actually crying out for a new one.
- by Slug on March 09, 2008 at 07:12 AM
Slug, You're logic is flawed.
Sydney DESPERATELY needs a second team BECAUSE SFC crowds reflect the facts - many people in one of the world's geographically-largest cities do not want to travel to the SFS to watch "their team" PLUS SFC HAVE BOTCHED their strategy to capture the hearts of western Sydney and now many people there support the Mariners.
SFC have let go another of their better people this week, a merry-go-round of employees bigger than a Sydney Olympic coaches' hall of fame.
Some say Lowy went for the SFS because it was "close to home" but others say he was leaving the door open for a second Sydney team.
Had SFC started at Homebush, there would never be a second Sydney team and crowds would have been in excess of 25,000 regularly.
Self-interest ruined the dreams of many who started the SFC ball rolling.
- by Didier on March 09, 2008 at 08:19 AM
Didier, couldn't have said it better myself. Melbourne does not need or want a second team. And it comes back to the simple geography of the city. Melbourne is realtively central to the urban sprawl, Sydney is not.
How long does it take a supporter from the Penrith/Nepean area to get to the Sydney Football Stadium? No wonder they want their own team.
And I have tried to shoot down any suggestion of a second Vic team, unlike NSW we have no regional centres big enough to support a team (Geelong - 180k people, Central Coast 310k +)
- by Lach on March 09, 2008 at 01:17 PM
Didier,
Does anyone even care that the SFS is actually right in the centre of Sydney city. Sydney is downtown near the harbour, the people who live out west should drivem train or bus it in to support the Sydney side. Homebush is not Sydney, its WEST!
- by dan on March 09, 2008 at 07:34 PM
They Def, Need a Second team - West Sydney - "Western Sydney Buccaneers",
(all black with pink lining)
They Also need a Melbourne Team
"South Melbourne Artis" ( baby blue and white)
( at Parramatta Stadium) or (Leichardt oval is a perfect place) homebush is too big, i think a small venue that can just cram in 20,000 - 30,000 max makes the atmosphere raw and makes if fill like real football game.
- by Chris on March 09, 2008 at 07:39 PM
I actually think that if SFC concentrated on the inner-urban and eastern suburbs areas, then its crowds would improve. The scope of the club's ambition regarding its following is anathema to what makes football football and what makes it so great: tribalism. We inner-city folk don't relate to the westies and they don't relate to us. A Sydney derby would draw huge crowds, I am 100% certain of that fact. 5000 people turned out to see PNU play SFC - the west is ready to support, but they clearly don't like us, and we should stop trying to reach out to them (current fans from the western suburbs excluded of course).
Plus I think SFC should undergo, not a re-brand, but a slight brand adjustment. The design elements are good, but the final product is a logo, not a shield or crest, and as such looks temporary. We mustn't underestimate the potential bad side-effects of opting for modern marketing with these wizzy logos and silly names. To do so is not to use the most powerful brand there is in football: authenticity. So if the west is to get a team, it can succeed right now, but only if it projects an image of 'realness' and looks as though it means it. And SFC wouldn't do too badly paying attention to that too.
- by welbs on March 09, 2008 at 07:50 PM
I have never seen Sydney FC doing anything for or in the community out west.
Look at all the juniors who play League, Cricket, Union, Athletics & Netball out here on a saturday in summer & winter.
Sydney FC clearly have a smash & grab mentality. They are a souless organisation.
- by Genghis on March 09, 2008 at 07:59 PM
I am a sydney fan but not always keen to travel to Moore Park. I went to watch the Newcastle vs Marinas final so maybe just a little footy mad.
Western Sydney United should be based at ANZ stadium with a few cameos at Parra stadium. The crowds Sydney got there were massive. Go Western Sydney United!!
- by Jarrod on March 09, 2008 at 09:59 PM
sure it would be great to have a sydney team representing the west but why is there no talk of a team from wollongong joining the competition.
- by greenoaks on March 10, 2008 at 12:16 AM
It is good to read that people are passionate about the A-League.
I hope some of this energy is being directed in the development of our kids as well. We need volunteers to assist in the development of our youth!
Back to the topic...Easy does it in the development of the A-League. It is still young and is a very good business model.
Does Sydney REALLY need a second team?
We all know the A-League is about profitability. But what about the many people who live in rural and regional Australia? They are just as passionate about football as city folk.
Right now, a second team in Sydney and Melbourne is a radical idea. So allow me to suggest a radical suggestion...
NSW and Victoria both receive a team each that must play games in 4 different regional centres and must sign up a minimum number of true-local youth players from regional areas.
I am a Central Coast supporter. I was glad to read how many true-local players were signed up by the Mariners' management when they began. Several years later, how many local players were regularly named in the starting line-up this year?
I am disappointed that so many ex-NSL players were successful in the scramble for A-League contracts. An opportunity to develop localism (or tribalism) was lost in order to make a lot of many.
There are many Englishman who would love to "those foreign players" restricted when it comes to the English Premier League.
Anywho, this is just my thoughts...
- by Patrick on March 10, 2008 at 06:12 AM
Jarrod, you say: "Western Sydney United should be based at ANZ stadium with a few cameos at Parra stadium. The crowds Sydney got there were massive. Go Western Sydney United!!"
Yeah, real massive...... besides the LA Galaxy marketing exercise (which was driven entirely by Beckham-mania), Sydney FC got around 10,000 to an Asian Champions League game at Parra (and around 800 at a pre-season match at the same venue).
Not exactly massive......
- by SFC till I die on March 10, 2008 at 10:07 AM
I agree that Sydney need another team that is based out west. Though I dont think now is the time- perhaps in a season or 2 when the demand is much greater and people are screaming out for a second Sydney team. i also agree with the notion that Homebush would not be an ideal venue- a large stadium like Homebush is great but only if it is packed out. After going to many NRL games there that only had 20,000 people show up the atmosphere is not as intense and detracts from the experience.
- by Dave on March 10, 2008 at 10:18 AM
I'm a bit cautious when it comes to a second Sydney team. Although I agree in principle with a lot of you, in regards to the location of where the second team is situated is the main problem.
Chris stated above Parramatta and Leichart as possible locations...these places are FAR too close to inner Sydney to not cause major damage to SFC's fanbase. As was also mentioned above by Lach about MVFC being geographically central it makes it hard to have another for another team, basing a team in Parramatta poses this same problem in Sydney.
I know a lot of people out west will say that this is the best place to serve all of the communities out west but at the same time the health and well-being of SFC has to be considered aswell as it does no good to critically harm another club for the sake of a new one. Take the new club further west to Penrith or Cambelltown where there are quality stadiums and allow both clubs to prosper.
- by Pete on March 10, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Name: Western Sydney United
Strip: Black and white (true fibro colurs)
Ground: New 30,000 seater maybe base near the junction of the M7 and M2 (near where Australia's Wonderland used to be). BIG car park to house all the V8 Commodores. Homebush is just too big for the right atmosphere. CUA in Penrith is perhaps too far west.
- by Western Sydney United on March 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Western Sydney United based out of Campbelltown. Massive junior participation base now totally neglected by the NRL (the Magpies now only play two or three games a year there now).
- by harry on March 10, 2008 at 11:12 AM
As a northern beaches resident, I support the Mariners because I feel far more affinity with the Central Coast than I do with the majority of Sydney, especially the eastern suburbs where Sydney FC is located. Sydney definitely needs another team in the west, because I reckon there are an awful lot of people who would feel a lot more affinity with a team based closer to where they live.
- by Georgia on March 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM
I agree with the comments of Didier and some others. A second Sydney team would be sustainable and desirable simply because Sydney FC isn't really tapping into that massive grassroots support for football we always hear about.
To whoever said the SFS is in the center of Sydney, it is geographically but it is certainly not a population center - which is the key. Moore Park is really not that convenient to get to and based on that alone Sydney FC isn't tapping its full potential as a team for the entire city.
That's not a criticism because I think it IS simply leaving the door open for another team.
One last thing, "Note to A-League clubs: develop young players and sell them for profit."
Please explain Matthew. I think you're dreaming here. Lovely idea but when it comes to contracts, and particularly when it comes to get-out clauses the clubs have little to no bargaining power.
In the future, as the league strengthens, I think we'll see a trade in players become more lucrative for clubs as they receive overseas attention.
For now however, the situation for the clubs is that they can choose between signing an in-demand player on reasonable wages but with a clause saying that if Europe comes knocking they get the player for nothing; or they get no player, when they bugger off overseas to take their chances with a trial.
Definitely a poor man's choice, not a great way of doing business and there I can see arguments either side, but I would prefer we have Australian players in the league for as long as possible and clubs getting screwed on transfers over them disappearing because they want to take their chances, but a club might get an occasional large transfer fee.
- by Richard on March 10, 2008 at 11:45 AM
While there should be one more NSW team, this should not happen for several more years. Already nearly half the competition is based in NSW. It needs to expand a lot more outside our borders before we even consider a second Sydney team. The Gold Coast is a good plan and hopefully in 12 months the North Qld franchise will be ready to go.
After those, we can consider another NSW team, but it should either a Wollongong team OR a West Sydney team (depending on the better bid). I have no problem with either one, but we need to ensure this National competition is equally represented nationally.
I can't speak for the situation in Melbourne regarding suitability, but I can't imagine that if NSW can sustain 3 or 4 teams that Victoria can't sustain a second.
- by Luke on March 10, 2008 at 12:03 PM
I agree with Welbs: a Sydney derby would draw huge crowds. And it would be a genuine derby too, unlike in the old NSL where there were too many boutique clubs in Sydney that meant too little to too many people. I never knew who to support.
The A League is different. I've been to a bunch of games and there's a very strong sense that the fans really care about their clubs.
Every decent league in the world has at least one showcase derby. Fans of all clubs love and anticipate them. The flow on effect to the rest of the competition can only be positive. In these the early stages of the A League my instincts tell me that a Sydney Derby is the one missing element.
And on the subject of my instincts, they're not boding well on the Townsville and Gold Coast proposals. I've spent alot of time in both of these towns. I very much doubt that A League teams will thrive there.
- by Brad on March 10, 2008 at 01:13 PM
I'm a big football and SydFC fan and do not believe that Sydney is ready for a new team....yet. Until we can average 20,000 - 25,000 I dont think it makes sense financially. The A-league and Football in general, needs more time to penetrate the hearts of the young children in the West. I personally dont think this will take long given the socceroos increased presence , resulting from the move into Asia.
After the next world cup would be a perfect time to launch a 2nd Sydney team (assuming the Socceroos qualify) in Penrith or Campbelltown as these areas are experiencing large population growth.
Paul
- by Paul on March 10, 2008 at 02:04 PM
>>Note to A-League clubs: develop young >>players and sell them for profit.
Matty
Obviously you are not up with things
Why should A League "clubs" develop young players when they can buy them at a bargain basin capped price of $3,000 from the "bad old ethnic teams" and make even a better profit....no sunk costs such as paying junior coaches, kits etc...
Oh yeah sorry I forgot we have solved the above with the advent of the NYL....I wonder where these players are going to come from as well
Ah, Evan. What was I thinking? MH
- by Evan Binos on March 10, 2008 at 02:21 PM
Dan,
Actually, if you look at a map of Sydney, Homebush is a very central location. You can hardly really call it "West" anymore.
The Sydney CBD is very close to the coast as far as Sydney's geography is concerned.
I think a cross town rivalry could possibly help build Sydney FC rather than detract from them. Much like Liverpool v Everton or Man United v Man City, the cross town rivalries are the most intense.
But it has to be very carefully built. The location is probably the difficult thing. As you want something that unites half of Sydney with that team and half of Sydney with this team.
The question to wonder about is, if you put a team at Parramatta, would that get people at Liverpool or Penrith? Of you put one at Liverpool, would it attract people from Parramatta. Etc...
And while Liverpool and Everton keep that intense rivalry going with stadiums that are not much further apart than the SFS and the SCG, I do still think that Homebush would be too close in Sydney, despite having the best option for a Stadium. It needs to probably be no closer to the city than Parramatta.
Done badly it can split the city, hurt Sydney FC and cause problems that are hard to recover from, but done right, the local cross town rivalries could be a bonus to both teams.
- by Chris on March 17, 2008 at 09:46 AM
My opinion as someone who lives out in the west of Blacktown, is that a second Sydney team in the west would be one of the most important and intelligent things that the FFA could do. The reason for this is that many people in the west feel 'Sydney FC' is a team that is for the white-collar part of Sydney and therefore cannot relate to its location and upper-class supporter demographic.
- by Srdjan on March 17, 2008 at 09:46 AM
I definately believe we should explore the viability of having a competition that has 16 teams with a defined second division as well as state third and fourth divisions. If the game is to progress and breed better players they need to be exposed to a higher level of play. Also it enforces the teams in the A league to continue to be financial as well as to set up a breeding programme for youth players to eventually take up the reigns in the higher divisions. If we do not make these teams more accountable we will be spending money on marque players and hoping to attract crowds. Also give all junior players free passes as they are sure to bring their parents or guardians to the game and by being exposed to this level young they will want to grow up and be the new Kewells, Cahills and Vidukas. Those guys did it on the back of their passion as well as skill and look at them now! At this point I think what has happened to the A league is fantastic and I think more is needed. Bring on a few more teams in areas such as Northern Queensland as Rugby League rules up there and the real football players are dying to get exposure to the game. Also I feel we need to have a team from Melbourne as well as NSW Country and bring on a Western Sydney side that has access to the olympic stadium or another stadium that suits as there are so many young kids playing the sport out there and again they need to be exposed to this high level as well. That way we will be ca true national sport just like basketball. Rugby league and football as well as AFL might be doing well but they are not deemed to be a national competiton more regional than anything else. I also think we should set up a FA cup type competition and for all the first grade teams in Asia and have a knock out as well set up a UEFA and Champions league for all the best four teams in Australasia many football leagues and play it off annually and see how the game progresses then. There is so much potential for the game and I am excited for its future.So far I take my hat off to the management...finally we are running the game as a business and the teams as a sport. Marque players are great as long as they contribute also we need to bring in a state of origin for the game and have state play state and get that happening like in the rugby league. Go Sydney FC and go the A League...well done and keep going forward.
- by John Petropoulos on March 17, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Why not just move Sydney FC out to Parramatta and get fans from both side of the city?
- by Jowel on March 17, 2008 at 01:26 PM
Unfortunately for football the AFL is doing the smart thing by setting up in Blacktown. Blacktown city has the largest population in the state, is geographically well and truly in the western suburbs and their new stadium (albeit training) is in a very accessible location (M7, M4, Western train line). If the FFA can somehow slip into the sheets with the other parties then they may come out on top.
- by Dan on March 17, 2008 at 01:32 PM
YES, Sydney should have a 2nd team and should name themselves WEST SYDNEY UNITED so that way they can "unite" all of western Sydney, southwest, northwest and greater west.
They should play half their games at Penrith & the other half at Campbelltown.
I think with the amount of young families who live in Western Sydney, they would be a immidiate success.
I work with alot of westies who refuse to go to SFC games because Moore park is way too far for them, especially in Sydney traffic.
- by Manny on March 17, 2008 at 03:36 PM
sydney have exeptinal players e.g. patrick, juninho,clint bolton and many more they should be fired up this season and should win or make it to the semi other than that
Go Sydney!!!
- by kieran on March 17, 2008 at 05:09 PM
i think sydney does need a second team...
when i go to Sydney FC teams, it takes almost as long as the game to get back home, and live in the Hills District, just north of Parramatta.
and thinking about it now, SFC shoulda always been based at Parramatta stadium.
the population around the SFS is mainly upper class Roosters and union-supporting types.
why cant this new team just rotate around
Liverpool, Penrith and Parramatta?
and please, when this team comes to fruition please please don't call it the force,blaze,fire,shock,impact,tactix (thats actually a name of a nz netball team) etc etc. or have no nickname at all, if preferable.
what about hoops for the kit?
white and black?
- by Mr. Moe on March 22, 2008 at 10:47 PM
they need a team in blacktown, soccer is bigger then ever there
- by joel on June 17, 2008 at 07:50 PM
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I�m all for a second sydney team but please dont give it a conceptual nickname like spirit, force, power, roar, blaze etc. That is all i ask.